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 Old English Gamefowl 
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Post Re: Old English Gamefowl
My friend you need to start visiting these countries in Latin America. When i was younger i was lucky enough to travel and was able explore various types of birds and shows in the process. The Spanish have not been replaced by Argentineans, since the weight for Argentineans would never be smaller than high 3s to 4 pounds from their oriental influence, there by would not reach the weights of 3 to 3 and a half pounds previously discussed. I do not find any of the comments abrupt just find some to be incorrect in my opinion from my experiences and readings. Everyone has their own opinion depending on what they have read and their own experiences with the birds, but this is what makes sharing in a forum great, since one is able to expand their own knowledge through discussions.


July 12th, 2012, 12:58 pm
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Chick
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Post Re: Old English Gamefowl
Exactly… this is not the first time someone tells Irish Farm Boy (Eddie) that he should visit Latin America before writing so much rubbish.

I can’t believe that he wrote somewhere in this forum that game fowl in Latin America are crossed because they were scattered by hurricanes and pick up from the bushes… hahaaaa :lol:

Currently in Latin America there are some of the most professional breeding farms of game fowls in the world, run by professional and wealthy people devoted 100% to this activity. You can find American, Spanish, Oriental fowl… both “pure” and crossed.

Farm Boy says somewhere here also that Latin American breeders don’t know what a Spanish cock looks like… hahahaa :lol: . Well, there is a high level of contact between the top breeders in Spain and the top breeders in Latin America. The first ones come every year to Latin America to show their birds at legal tournaments. Many birds from Spain arrive every year to Latin America and some are kept pure for breeding purposes… and the most interesting information for you, some Latin American bred birds go back to Spain as well to top breeders’ brood yards.

I don’t have time to reply to all the misinformation written down here so I feel sorry for the young and new ones in this hobby who may believe anything written down in internet.

But you are right Viejo Santo… Farm Boy must start visiting Latin America and furthermore mixing with the top Spanish breeders before writing so much rubbish.

---


July 13th, 2012, 12:51 pm
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Post Re: Old English Gamefowl
Hi Eddie, nice to see you again in the net in this forum. I have told you so many times that if you need info on gamefowl in general in Latin America, I´d be glad to share up to date accurate, first hand information in order for you to complete the one you have gathered in the Old continent which in many things I found very interesting and revealing mainly regsarding the origin of the Oeg breed. As I have mention openly before in forums, I agree in your statement about the similarities of the real Old English Game and the Spanish game, which in one point of the past were more or less the same type of bird: a pure bankivoid of small size and weight. The oldest findings in the European continent regarding chicken bones, were found in a old phoenician factory in the Spanish port of CADIZ, (old phoenician port named originally GADEZ in their native tongue) and date back to some 3500 years old, so it can be concluded that they took the original bankiva bird to this lands including the British Isles, that is the reason why the Romans when first arriving and conquering the northern (for them) european lands, find the same kind of bird they treasured as avid cockers as they were and a very well develloped tration on cockfighting on this lands of the "Gauls", the Brittons, and Anglo-Saxons, etc. Now when did the "asiloid" type of birds arrived first in europe it´s a matter of especulation as it is when they first crossed them to the older, somehow "native" bankivoid stock taken there from the far east?? but as Eddie has maintained many years already, there was a time when in England the local breeders changed the phenotipe of their fighting birds by means of crossing with other breeds to adjust them to the new type of heel being in vogue (the **** ) and changing also their natural instinctive train of fight which is head hunters frontal fighters, to a body hitter type of bird, suited best for the long fine and hard gaffs being used, in the other side of the canal, the Gauls develloped a gigantic type of banquivoid also suited for this metal heels and hence the Nord was develloped and all the Belgian game breeds, but in Spain the retained the old bakivoid "original" type that was fought in their natural spurs and still is, up to date, the lenght of one "castillian inch" or pulgada castellana which is 22 milimiters long and the fowl is still a pure head hunter. So in short, I agree with the statement that all bankivoid gamefowl in the old time Europe was just about the same and fought in natural spurs or postizas matching the broken ones untill the heels and rules started to change and so did the birds more over with the advent of the new gamebreeds to cross with (orientals). Unfortunatelly not many if any records of this episodes have been written or kept, so we are left somehow in the dark with a minumun to try and especualte around of. Finally Eddie, I agree with Elvie and Redquill that regarding Latin American gamefowl, it´s best for you and for any one eager to learn about it, to learn from the source and here in this forum there are plenty of people from this lands that can share any info regarding.

Regards to all.

Pablo E. Jerves
Ecuador Souh America

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July 13th, 2012, 2:45 pm
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Chick
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Post Re: Old English Gamefowl
Redquill wrote:
Exactly… this is not the first time someone tells Irish Farm Boy (Eddie) that he should visit Latin America before writing so much rubbish.
---


Been to Latin America almost 25 years ago. Went with a bunch of Australian back packers. Spent over four months traveling through a lot of it. Went from London England. First Mexico, then onto Brazil and from there traveled about in campers Bolivia then onto Paraguay and Argentina. Some small light fowl in Mexico but not pure Spanish Game. A lot of them had White legs, top knots / muffs and dom feathers, pea combs etc. Lots of big heads too. The other countries only had very Oriental type of fowl.

Just came back from Spain and France after been there for months. Got homes and land in both countries.

Quote:
I can’t believe that he wrote somewhere in this forum that game fowl in Latin America are crossed because they were scattered by hurricanes and pick up from the bushes… hahaaaa :lol:
Actually no, it is in the Caribbean.

Quote:
Farm Boy says somewhere here also that Latin American breeders don’t know what a Spanish cock looks like… hahahaa :lol: .
No, it was just a question.

Quote:
Currently in Latin America there are some of the most professional breeding farms of game fowls in the world, run by professional and wealthy people devoted 100% to this activity.
That is right and several of them were just over here, they were in Spain and France. ;) They were looking for pure bred Spanish brood cocks to bring back home.

Regards Eddie


July 14th, 2012, 5:23 pm
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Chick
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Post Re: Old English Gamefowl
elviejosanto wrote:
The Spanish have not been replaced by Argentineans, since the weight for Argentineans would never be smaller than high 3s to 4 pounds from their oriental influence, there by would not reach the weights of 3 to 3 and a half pounds previously discussed. I do not find any of the comments abrupt just find some to be incorrect in my opinion from my experiences and readings. Everyone has their own opinion depending on what they have read and their own experiences with the birds, but this is what makes sharing in a forum great, since one is able to expand their own knowledge through discussions.
The thing is just because a bird is 3lb to 3lb 8oz or lighter, it don't make the bird a Spanish Game. There are Game bred Ko Shamo from only about 1lb 12oz to 2lb and Game bred Tuzo from about 3lb to 4lb in Europe. South West Europe is full of 3lb to 3lb 8oz birds and lighter, that are a mixture of Bankivas and those small Orientals. Latin America and the Caribbean is also full of those type of fowl too. The Spanish Game Federation was established to distinguish the pure Spanish Game from all those Oriental mixed fowl. The pure Spanish Game was very rare in Spain in the 1970's when the Federation was established. No other country has done this.

Here is a bunch of birds they are from 1/2 to 1/8 Asil and Tuzo from Spain and they are from about 2lb 14oz to about 3lb 14oz. ....

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July 14th, 2012, 5:43 pm
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Chick
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Post Re: Old English Gamefowl
Quote:
Hi Eddie, nice to see you again in the net in this forum.

Regards to all.

Pablo E. Jerves
Ecuador Souh America
Greetings JRVASIL. Nice to hear from you too friend. You and I had a debate like this over on Ganoi.com some years back. You were right then and you are right now. I have edited some of it here ....

"In the other countries you mention ( Argentina, Bolivia and many others too) the oriental breeds started coming at the end of the 19th century and took over the spanish related fowl because of the weapon being used (a small steel postiza called puón) in which the orientals (mainly asil at first and later shamo and others) showed an unbearrable advantage against the bankivoids. There´s a clear example of this in recent times in Mexico with the birds fought in "cuarto de redonda" which were only spanish or spanish descendants such as cuban, puertorican, etc... when breeders started hibridizing their stock with orientals, they simply took over and replaced the entire population in no more than a few years not beacuse of rule changes, but because the type of cock was more able in that particular weapon.

you are very right Ares, "cuarto" birds, were spanish and spanish-decendants mostly, and pited in such a short and tough weapon they showed extreme gameness and also a good stamina and resistance, but when the oriental crosses started to show at pits the advantage was so grand that breeders now only show birds with an almost "pure" oriental look (most of them: brazilians & argentinian). It´s a process that took +/- 5 years and the entire population of birds changed to the oriental side.

Regards.

Jrvasil."


July 14th, 2012, 6:34 pm
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Post Re: Old English Gamefowl
Here is an article written by a Latin American. It's been translated into English. ....

"GALLO FOR THE FOURTH
AND
ALUMINUM false
by
Ruben Gonzalez

Today the rooster crossed with oriental (Fathead minnow) is The Most quoted for the move of aluminum spurs and Especially in the fourth round.

The fourth round is the perfect weapon Probably for the cock "big head". This weapon is extremely short and tied on one leg. You Could Say That is the closest thing possible to move to Spurs lined Which bred the cock WAS East, Shamo and Asil Especially the.

The rooster cross has the Advantage In This weapon Because physical attributes These animals Have Them That help tremendously. They are broad and strong neck, large head, coarse, ideal to withstand blows without Many mamporros and to cause great harm Them. They are excellent musculature and physical stamina much, do not pull easily. These Are the No Doubt That the East has attributes in abundance But Also Have Defects purity. The biggest Is That They Are very slow and very bad mouth. If there is a tournament Between puree mashed oriental roosters and roosters Both Spanish and weigh the Same, say four pounds, to Any sharp weapon, I would bet MOST of the fights That won the Spanish. On one condition, the oriental roosters That Were not too high. The speed, aggression and aim the cock Spanish is Higher Than the eastern cock. I know Many People Say That the aim to bring oriental roosters you the crosses of These animals, But This Not Been my experience. From what I've seen, Against the Roosters and I played With The Same cock and pulled me in my cockpit, FEWER truly cross cutting the roosters roosters Spanish. The rooster is very prone to cross historical missing shots. This is not to say That does not strike, Because if it does, but not all the time Do It With weapons.

In my experience the rooster crossed eastern and Tend to be very mayugadores but not very cutters. Clear to all is no exception and Also In This, I suppose there Must Be Some very cutters eastern lines, But These are not anywhere.

We hear a lot of power (of the punch) and the movement of the rooster crossed But believe me when I say That the difference is small, and varies widely from single to single, and line by line, That Is Difficult to Ensure the veracity of this.

When a Spanish cock played With A Cross, Most of the Time going at a disadvantage in height Tremendous. So When you look at the fight When you look at the Spanish rooster pull is too weak, and when to cross the strip much. Few people find the Spanish rooster That Rarely can hit the stubborn head, as the other cock is very high. But the cock has no problem crossing the head to find him in Spanish, and more Effective THEREFORE When You look at this paste. This does not mean the rooster cross is stronger, But That if sticking Where It Should while the Spanish, yet still can not. Take it from me because i Happened to many times. But the big heads cocks Sometimes They Have not taken Advantage in stature as Spanish, Have HAD very good win or leave Defeated, just as in a fight HAD Happened Between Two Spanish roosters.

What I mean by this is That in roosters peak height is the key, and the more girls are the Most Important weapon is the height. If someone crosses oriental roosters tall short people are losing time and experience Their I can tell you That NO plays big heads cocks small people, and the reason is Because cocks These Have No Advantage Over-the Pure Spanish. If the play to Spurs lined THOUGH Then They Carried advantage, Their physique and stamina, But with weapons, And That includes the fourth round.

Here in Houston the roosters are asiles Known for Many Years, as in Mexico, But Back Then Known Asil WAS WAS short, and result in no one WAS afraid. When in Mexico Began to enter the Brazilian cock WAS When They started to change things. These roosters Were much higher, and although slow and not very cutting as you like Easily won, But in an ugly way.

The fight Between a high cross and Spanish is not a pretty fight Usually, But That Is Irrelevant, what is the result Matters. The result is the rooster crossed That winning seven out of ten to nine fights Against the Spanish clean. Although it takes me a couple of years when to These cocks started spreading among common cockers When They started to cause anger, while today the Spanish cock is Relegated to be Used for breeding only, to get more cocks crossed.

As usual, what is good in Mexico is good here, and do not take long to enter These cocks "big heads" here to Houston. Right now I can say I'm the only one still gets mashed cockfighting roosters to fight Spanish, mostly because i still can not find Some roosters "big head" that I like. I'm trying to get some and I have a FEW to stall this season to see how it goes with Them. But among cockers here today only play "big heads".

Another note to give That I Want Is That the longer is the least Effective Weapon to be played is the rooster crossed. The Percentage of These cocks fight win spurs is less than 1 "that spurs 3/4" and much less than Their share of fights won a round room, where 'Almost never lose. Most cockers here prefer not to play the spur 1 "Because They Know That With This weapon and the body shots and win events Also Have Their cocks not as clean as out When They play spurs 3/4" or round room. That's Why this weapon is not accepted among cockers here.

The Pagan Sigismund eleven friend Told me that I've Been playing big heads cocks Against Spanish for two years and About Has Been winning a good Percentage Against Them, this in. spurs 1 ". Now, the friend says Fernando Bodon Their roosters Silver Queen, Which are half Asil blood (and THEREFORE big heads) are invincible spurs 1 ". Perhaps the aiga touched him get a good cross Between stubborn I Could Maintain the speed and Puerto Ricans cocks Mouth with stamina and stature of the East. But I would not say That this is the rule of thumb In These Situations, as in the arms of a "pure Spanish Tends to fight in a more evenly Against the rooster crossed.

With spurs Used in Puerto Rico Should Be Even Better things for the Spanish cock, and as everyone knows in the Caribbean cocks big heads Have not They Have Had the success in Mexico and HAD the United States, Where They play with Shorter arms.

As a general rule I give the Following recommendations:

* To play a round room: 1/2 Spanish and 1/2 East, 3/4 Spanish 1/4 East, leaving only the highest.

* To play spurs 3/4 "and 1" aluminum: 3/4 Spanish 1/4 East, 7/8 Spanish 1/8 East, leaving only the Highest and are fast.

* To play spurs 1 1/4 "or more long: pure Spanish, 7/8 Spanish 1/8 east and Sometimes cocks 7/8 Spanish and 1/8 cock to play short as Whitehackles gaffs, Butchers, Muffs and the like, But In These last crosses Have To Go Carefully, Because roosters are needed That can withstand the fatigue if the fight goes long.

The longer the MOST NECESSARY weapon is speed and height is less Important, within The Un certain limits of course. This can be seen in the stinger cocks (gaffs) Where the Majority are of medium height, broad and strong, and although the height if it is a factor, This weapon has no Importance For Those Who Play roosters beak.

Perhaps They think I put too much Into a single quality, stature, But is More Important than Certainly the look. His Influence on the outcome of combat is irrefutable and eleven You have experience in this. The rooster crossed when to well done is an Animal very Carefully, As They can get to all the best features Have of Both Families. But as I said Before, These animals are not as easy to make or find. So if the roosters are not crossed as it is easy to find That dominate so much?. Well tell me how to be fine Concerned When fighting a rooster does not feel much pain Have to Because I never hit them?. Not much you?. So I Say That height is the key, if you can bash you can not beat. In order to compete room round aluminum spurs and short in a short time this is the path You have to take. If for some reason someone does not like cocks "big head" Because Then You Will Have to Be resigned to marry her Spanish with care or play Them rifles. Personally I do if my cock Carefully Sometimes no matter how THOUGH I want to watch as I go out to the advantage. No way so are the cocks. No doubt there are many more opinions, this is just mine and is for illustrative cocks in my area are That and how and weapons in Which We play. Elsewhere maybe things are different.

I hope you learn something and please heed my review when to tell someone never crossed the roosters are not careful, Because the reality is Different THOUGH Many do not like."


July 14th, 2012, 7:16 pm
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